Let ${\mathfrak{M}}$ be a nonstandard model of Peano Arithmetic with domain M and let ${n \in M}$ be nonstandard. We study the symmetric and alternating groups S n and A n of permutations of the set ${\{0,1,\ldots,n-1\}}$ internal to ${\mathfrak{M}}$ , and classify all their normal subgroups, identifying many externally defined such normal subgroups in the process. We provide evidence that A n and S n are not split extensions by these normal subgroups, by showing that any such complement if (...) it exists, cannot be a limit of definable sets. We conclude by identifying an ${\mathbb{R}}$ -valued metric on ${\tilde{S}_n = S_n /B_S}$ and ${\tilde{A}_n = A_n /B_A}$ (where B S , B A are the maximal normal subgroups of S n and A n identified earlier) making these groups into topological groups, and by showing that if ${\mathfrak{M}}$ is ${\mathfrak\aleph_1}$ -saturated then ${\tilde{S}_n}$ and ${\tilde{A}_n}$ are complete with respect to this metric. (shrink)