For α less than ε0 let $N\alpha$ be the number of occurrences of ω in the Cantor normal form of α. Further let $\mid n \mid$ denote the binary length of a natural number n, let $\mid n\mid_h$ denote the h-times iterated binary length of n and let inv(n) be the least h such that $\mid n\mid_h \leq 2$ . We show that for any natural number h first order Peano arithmetic, PA, does not prove the following sentence: For all (...) K there exists an M which bounds the lengths n of all strictly descending sequences $\langle \alpha_0, ..., \alpha_n\rangle$ of ordinals less than ε0 which satisfy the condition that the Norm $N\alpha_i$ of the i-th term αi is bounded by $K + \mid i \mid \cdot \mid i\mid_h$ . As a supplement to this (refined Friedman style) independence result we further show that e.g., primitive recursive arithmetic, PRA, proves that for all K there is an M which bounds the length n of any strictly descending sequence $\langle \alpha_0,..., \alpha_n\rangle$ of ordinals less than ε0 which satisfies the condition that the Norm $N\alpha_i$ of the i-th term αi is bounded by $K + \mid i \mid\cdot inv(i)$ . The proofs are based on results from proof theory and techniques from asymptotic analysis of Polya-style enumerations. Using results from Otter and from Matou $\breve$ ek and Loebl we obtain similar characterizations for finite bad sequences of finite trees in terms of Otter's tree constant 2.9557652856... (shrink)